One Man’s Mistake is Another Man’s Treasure
By Fritz Horton, Lake Champlain Chapter
The Thistle Class sailing dinghy was designed in 1945 by Gordon (“Sandy”) Douglass to reach the post-war market yearning for inexpensive, high-performance one design boats. The design was patterned after then-current versions of the International 14 Class dinghies, in which Douglass had won a bronze medal in the ‘36 Olympic Games. On a trailer, like the Snipe and Lightning, the boat offered young families ready access to the water from their suburban homes. With her mast stepped on the thwart instead of on the keel, the Thistle was a sure winner of the then-popular “trailer-to-trailer” races, where the race started and ended with the boats snug on their trailers at the launching ramp!
The Thistle fully rigged is light (515 lb.) due to her cold-molded plywood construction. The hull, at approximately 300 lb., consists of five laminations of 1/16” mahogany, stapled and glued together and braced with gratings, thwarts and seats to yield a surprisingly open but very rigid structure.
“Ouisquaebae” would have been Thistle #792 in 1952 if the bare hull had not been set aside by its builder, Douglass and McDleod, to serve as the plug for the new fiberglass designs. For that role, she was faired, templated, finished with lacquer and mounted on movable supports at stem and stern to allow her to be rotated 180 to drop the fiberglass female molds after curing. Fiberglass Thistles were then molded by Douglass & McCleod and other builders using the female molds from “Quisquaebae”. She is truly the “mother” of all modern fiberglass Thistles.
Fritz Horton, an architect in Shelburne, Vermont, bought the boat in 1973 from John Riley, who, apparently by mistake, was allowed to purchase the hull from Douglass & McCleod in 1969. Despite Ray McCleod’s pleas to return the “Class Plug”, Riley refused. The Class then had a problem. It had lost something akin to the U.S. Constitution – the basis for measuring any suspected changes to the benchmark hull by its builders. Also, because her original hull number (792) had been assigned to another boat after she was set aside for use as a mold, the Thistle Class had to assign her the next highest current registration number, which at that time was #3184. Currently, no wooden Thistle with a higher registration number exists.
After removing enough of the finish to determine the outer veneer had been sanded through in several places, Fritz removed the outer 1/16” with a router and rasp, replaced it with sapele and finished the boat in Vermont over a two-year period, completing the process in 1978.
16 Comments
I love this story! Thank you for featuring a sailboat! What a beautiful boat and with such a unique history! Will you bring her to the 2019 International at Alex Bay? I would LOVE to see this boat in person. What is the story behind her name?
Due to the age of your Thistle I wonder if the proper name for the construction type would be hot molded vs. cold molded? The older Thistles, like #16, were hot molded using thin veneers, glue, and heat in an oven or thick rubber bag to bake the boat until the glues and veneers cured. Cold molded construction uses modern epoxy resins for the binder of the veneers and do not require heat to cure.
Yes, That seems a common mistake. Many are stating them to be Cold, when actually Hot Molded was a fairly New Method of construction in the 40s. Cold Molding did not begin until new glues had been developed after D&M have switched over to Fiberglass in the 60s. I read all the time the wonder of how well cold molding will hold up over the long run. Still has yet to be known its longevity.
Fritz, great boat. I remember you bringing her to Lake George on occasion, we were all enamored of the ‘bright-finished’ Thistle in the fleet. I think I remember a very pretty spinnaker as well…
My dad bought a Thistle, # 299, at the NY Boat Show, I think in 1948-49, and we sailed and raced it at Lk Hopatcong, NJ for many years. It had a white hull and was a joy to sail. Many years later, when my dad was no longer able to sail he gave the Thistle to my brother who took it to Larchmont YC and then to Riverhead NY. Then he had it restored and he gave it to the Lake Hopatcong YC to be used for sailing instruction. A nice story of # 299 with a good ending. Separately, my Dad owned a ’39 Barrel Back CC which he gave to me 35 years ago. It is at Grandview LK in Indiana and has been restored twice, most recently by Motor Boat Garage in Cincinnati. Bob Orben 812-350-9046
Beautiful boats – both.
Fritz I’m taken with Shannon Knight’s enthusiasm for showing the boat at A Bay. Any plan to do so? Gene
Fritz, You mentioned D&M produced International 14’s in your story. I owned #256 during the 1950’s as a teenager. I’m wondering if any one knows where it is or what happened to it. Bill Truex. [email protected] on Lake Champlain.
Wonderful to see this story shared with many wood boat enthusiasts. I’ve known Fritz and the story of his boat for about forty years. I’ve sailed with him and against him in many races. He is impossible to beat.
We once took Ouisquaebae to a regatta at Lake Hopatcong and got a lot of raised eyebrows with sail number 3184 on a Woodie. Fritz might have had to produce his Thistle registration to be allowed to sail. The competition quickly learned that this was a hot boat, not another worn out old Woodie.
Something seems a little screwy in the story. I have 1028 built in 1958 and it certainly is not the last of the Woodies by D&M. I have read that D&M were one of the first to start using fiberglass hulls but those did not come out until 1960s. Why set aside in 1952 boat for use as the mold for fiberglassing when fiberglass was probably not a known product? Likely you have your numbers wrong. I don’t know the final woodie number But maybe 1792 is more like the number and not 792. 792 does seem to have been around 1952 production. Yup, one mans mistake is another mans treasure. Seems you didn’t get the treasure, but got handed a line of bull
As pointed out above, These were all Hot Molded. Cold did not come out until after D&M switched to Fiberglass,
Sandy Douglas went on to design and market the “Flying Scot” in the late 1950’s, early 1960’s. Very popular 19 foot sailboat in that time. Had an opportunity to meet him when he was delivering one to a camp I worked at in eastern North Carolina
Fritz, Remember sailing in your great boat as crew. Have followed your families career since then. If you get back to LG, give me a call. I think I can come up with the scotch matching your beloved name.
Thistles were a large class in the weekly races on Lake Hopatcong in NJ years ago. I enjoyed sitting on my porch watching them round the buoy at Henderson Cove and hoisting their colorful spinnakers for the downwind run back to the yacht club.
I rescued 1590 around 12 years ago. The restoration process took a lot longer than expected but got a lot of help from Midwestern yacht company. She’s a lot faster than a flying scot, and a lot more challenging on busy waters. I don’t sail her often though, but she is a beautiful boat. Loved your article
My family had Thistle #24 in the early 1960’s, sold it around 1967 after putting fiberglass to its’ bottom. Sailed Lake St. Claire in Michigan. Always wondered what became of her. [email protected]
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Thistle Class Association
Class contact information.
Click below
Class Email
Class Website
One-Design Class Type: Dinghy
Was this boat built to be sailed by youth or adults? Both
Approximately how many class members do you have? 900+
Photo Credit:Saint Petersburg Yacht Club Media Team
Photo Credit: Saint Petersburg Yacht Club Media Team
Photo Credit: Sarah Bonner
About Thistle Class Association
Looking for fun people to sail with and against? We’d love to meet you and get you in a Thistle. You’ll be part of a welcoming community, and you’ll love the speed and responsiveness of the boat.
The Thistle is a high-performance one-design racing sailboat that is generally sailed with a three-person crew. Thistles have a main, jib and symmetrical spinnaker sail plan. They’re: • Consistently fast due to the high sail area to weight ratio • Quick to plane thanks to the wide, flat stern • Built to slice through waves with the plumb bow It’s a fun, fast, responsive boat that does well in a wide variety of conditions. Thistles plane easily in 10-12 knots of breeze and glide effortlessly in light air.
There are more than 50 active Thistle fleets across the US. Thistles age extremely well, so well cared-for older boats can be just as fast as new boats. Our one-design rules make sure that racing proves the quality of the sailor rather than the money invested in the boat. Thistles sail as a Corinthian class, which means you won’t be sailing against boats with paid crew members (or a paid driver).
The Thistle Class is a community of people who love the Thistle and get a thrill out of sailing it with our friends – new and old. The Thistle Class has been around since 1945 and is still growing and active; you can find Thistles – and Thistlers (that’s what we call ourselves) – all across the country.
We have as much fun on shore together as we do racing. You might see group yoga on the grass, a camping chair circle (always room for more!) or an impromptu training session at someone’s boat. We love sharing knowledge and getting people up to speed. Walk up to anyone in the parking lot and ask about their strategy, rigging, mast tune, anything! We’re glad to help.
Want to give the Thistle Class a try? Find a fleet near you with our interactive map: https://www.thistleclass.com/find-a-fleet/. If there’s no fleet nearby, give our class secretary a shout at [email protected]; there’s probably a Thistle owner or two close by.
Boats Produced: 4056
Class boat builder(s):
Beacon Composites Great Midwest Yachts
Approximately how many boats are in the USA/North America? 3800
Where is your One-Design class typically sailed in the USA? List regions of the country:
Find a fleet near you with our interactive map: https://www.thistleclass.com/find-a-fleet/. States with active fleets: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, Washington.
Does this class have a spinnaker or gennaker? Yes
How many people sail as a crew including the helm? 3
Ideal combined weight of range of crew: 3-person teams typically range from 425-500 lbs. Thistles can be double-handed in light or medium wind at approximately 300+ lbs.
Portsmouth Yardstick Rating: 83
Boat Designed in 1945
Length (feet/inches): 17’0”
Weight of rigged boat without sails: 515 lbs.
Draft: board up: 0′ 6″; board down: 4′ 6″
Mast Height: 24’6″
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Copyright ©2018-2024 United States Sailing Association. All rights reserved. US Sailing is a 501(c)3 organization. Website designed & developed by Design Principles, Inc. -->
The Thistle is a 17.0ft fractional sloop designed by Sandy Douglass and built in fiberglass by Clark Boat Company since 1945.
4000 units have been built..
The Thistle is an ultralight sailboat which is a very high performer. It is stable / stiff and has a low righting capability if capsized. It is best suited as a racing boat.
Thistle for sale elsewhere on the web:
Main features
| Model | Thistle | ||
| Length | 17 ft | ||
| Beam | 6 ft | ||
| Draft | 0.50 ft | ||
| Country | United states (North America) | ||
| Estimated price | $ 0 | ?? |
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| Sail area / displ. | 47.63 | ||
| Ballast / displ. | 0 % | ||
| Displ. / length | 46.80 | ||
| Comfort ratio | 4.30 | ||
| Capsize | 3 |
| Hull type | Centerboard Dinghy | ||
| Construction | Fiberglass | ||
| Waterline length | 17 ft | ||
| Maximum draft | 4.50 ft | ||
| Displacement | 515 lbs | ||
| Ballast | 0 lbs | ||
| Hull speed | 5.52 knots |
We help you build your own hydraulic steering system - Lecomble & Schmitt
| Rigging | Fractional Sloop | ||
| Sail area (100%) | 191 sq.ft | ||
| Air draft | 0 ft | ?? | |
| Sail area fore | 0 sq.ft | ?? | |
| Sail area main | 0 sq.ft | ?? | |
| I | 0 ft | ?? | |
| J | 0 ft | ?? | |
| P | 0 ft | ?? | |
| E | 0 ft | ?? |
| Nb engines | 1 | ||
| Total power | 0 HP | ||
| Fuel capacity | 0 gals |
Accommodations
| Water capacity | 0 gals | ||
| Headroom | 0 ft | ||
| Nb of cabins | 0 | ||
| Nb of berths | 0 | ||
| Nb heads | 0 |
Builder data
| Builder | Clark Boat Company | ||
| Designer | Sandy Douglass | ||
| First built | 1945 | ||
| Last built | 0 | ?? | |
| Number built | 4000 |
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November 30, 1999 by Sail1Design Editor Leave a Comment
The Thistle is a high performance racing dinghy, also used for day sailing, popular in the United States. The Thistle was designed in 1945 by Gordon K. (Sandy) Douglass.
The Thistle Class Association, with fleets across the country, holds local, regional, and national regattas throughout the year. All Thistles are built to the same lines by authorized builders. Class rules limit innovations in rigging, restrict sail purchases, and prohibit electronic navigation gear. Old and new boats are evenly matched, with the owner of Thistle number 1 winning the national championship in 1990.
Thistle hulls are relatively light for their size, doing away with decking and spray protection to save weight. The sail plan is larger for the boat’s weight than in many other dinghies, making Thistles good light wind performers. Their hulls have wide flat bottoms, allowing the boats to plane in winds of 15 to 20 knots. The sail plan is large for a boat of this size, consisting of a marconi rig with a main, jib, and symmetrical spinnaker. Thistle #1 won the Lake Erie Districts in 2013!
Thistles are generally raced with a three person crew. A skipper, a middle, and a forward person. The optimal total crew weight is generally 450 lb to 480 lb (US) depending on wind. The class is generally family friendly, though experienced sailors will still be challenged at the higher levels of competition.
The Thistle is used as the baseline for the U.S. version of the Portsmouth yardstick system for handicapping small boats in mixed-class fleets.
loa 17’ beam 6’ sail area 191 ft² spinnaker area 220 ft² hull weight 515 lbs. crew 3 # of boats built 4,000 active US fleets
AL, AR, AZ, CA, CT, DE, FL, GA, IL, IN, KS, KY, LA, MA, MI, MO, MT, NC, NJ, NY, OH, OK, OR, PA, SC, TN, TX, VA, WA
Class website: http://www.thistleclass.com/
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IMAGES
COMMENTS
Please enjoy this partial list of boats, manufacturers, and year the number was sold. The records in this format do not go back any further. Sandy Douglass built the first Thistle in 1945. Many of the early wooden boats are kit boats so keep in mind that the year the number was issued and the date the boat was built are not necessarily the same.
The Thistle is a recreational sailboat, with the earlier production models made from molded plywood and the more recent models built predominantly of fiberglass, with wood structural members and trim. The seats are a fiberglass-sandwich construction, and provide built-in flotation. It has a fractional sloop rig with aluminum spars and three ...
The Thistle is a high-performance one-design racing sailboat that is g enerally sailed with a three-person crew. Thistles have a main, jib and symmetrical spinnaker sail plan. They're: ... A new Thistle runs around $25,000 for the hull, spars, blades and rigging. For a very competitive used boat, expect to spend between $10,000 and $15,000.
THISTLE. Save to Favorites . Beta Marine ... the less power it takes to drive the boat to its nominal hull speed. less than 100 = Ultralight; 100-200 = Light; 200-275 = Moderate; 275-350 = Heavy; ... The higher the number the faster speed prediction for the boat. A cat with a number 0.6 is likely to sail 6kts in 10kts wind, a cat with a number ...
Currently, no wooden Thistle with a higher registration number exists. After removing enough of the finish to determine the outer veneer had been sanded through in several places, Fritz removed the outer 1/16" with a router and rasp, replaced it with sapele and finished the boat in Vermont over a two-year period, completing the process in 1978.
Thistles sail as a Corinthian class, which means you won't be sailing against boats with paid crew members (or a paid driver). The Thistle Class is a community of people who love the Thistle and get a thrill out of sailing it with our friends - new and old. The Thistle Class has been around since 1945 and is still growing and active; you ...
Use a steel tape measure held parallel to the lines of the hull. Measure from the stem to a straight edge held against the transom and projecting above it. The "lines" of the hull are level when the boat has the bottom of its transom 9 inches above the very bottom of the hull at station 6 as shown on the measurement certificate.
The higher a boat's D/L ratio, the more easily it will carry a load and the more comfortable its motion will be. The lower a boat's ratio is, the less power it takes to drive the boat to its nominal hull speed or beyond. Read more. Formula. D/L = (D ÷ 2240) ÷ (0.01 x LWL)³ D: Displacement of the boat in pounds. LWL: Waterline length in feet
The Thistle is a 17.0ft fractional sloop designed by Sandy Douglass and built in fiberglass by Clark Boat Company since 1945. 4000 units have been built. The Thistle is an ultralight sailboat which is a very high performer. It is stable / stiff and has a low righting capability if capsized. It is best suited as a racing boat.
Old and new boats are evenly matched, with the owner of Thistle number 1 winning the national championship in 1990. Thistle hulls are relatively light for their size, doing away with decking and spray protection to save weight. The sail plan is larger for the boat's weight than in many other dinghies, making Thistles good light wind performers.
Add the price of a new mast ($1,000) into the boat's price if the boat comes with a gold or wooden mast. The old gold masts are much too stiff for competitive racing. Note the black mast on 3905 and 3719 and the silver mast on 4032. 4. Presence of cracks and creases in the hull.
Connecticut David Fales - 203-981-3549 cell or Robin Johnson 917 318 871. 9/13/2005 - Wayfarer #704 Restored Woodie for sale. Hull # 704. Freshwater Wayfarer sailed only a few times since full restoration. $1,800 for quick sale. New items include: jib, jib halyard, bronze gooseneck, boomvang, mainsheet hardware, and tiller extension.
Selling my lightning-fast Thistle sailboat. These are a great class of boats, with classic lines and capable of great speeds. Matching hull number sails (main, sail, spinnaker) professionally cleaned and in nice shape with no rips! Aluminum trailer in great shape, can haul anywhere. Wood in great shape, aluminum spars in great shape, and ...
Thistle 2441. Posted 2 weeks ago by Jo Ann Kelley. Sailed on Alton Lake Valley Sailing & Boulder Marina Carlye Lake. Dried sailed last 20 years. 4 sets of sails, all rigging trailer. Sold at auction on August 25 in Troy, MO. Call 314-852-6300 for all details. Boats / Missouri / 41 views / New Popular.
THISTLE 31. Save to Favorites ... the less power it takes to drive the boat to its nominal hull speed. less than 100 = Ultralight; 100-200 = Light; 200-275 = Moderate; 275-350 = Heavy; ... The higher the number the faster speed prediction for the boat. A cat with a number 0.6 is likely to sail 6kts in 10kts wind, a cat with a number of 0.7 is ...
Detailed photos of Thistle sailboats including running rigging, standing rigging, and deck layout. 10% Off Hobie Parts / 15% Off Rigging / 10-15% Off Select Kayaks - SHOP NOW Menu
The higher a boat's D/L ratio, the more easily it will carry a load and the more comfortable its motion will be. The lower a boat's ratio is, the less power it takes to drive the boat to its nominal hull speed or beyond. Read more. Formula. D/L = (D ÷ 2240) ÷ (0.01 x LWL)³ D: Displacement of the boat in pounds. LWL: Waterline length in feet
HIN with Model Year. Example: ABC12345M72D (November 1972) The 9th character "M" stands for model year. The 10th and 11th are the last two digits of the model year. The 12th is the letter designating the month of manufacture. Now, here's where the government got cute: Here's how to identify your boat's Hull Identification Number (HIN), or ...
Boat Pennant No. Commissioned Displacement Fleet Note Delta IV: 667BDRM: Verkhoturye: K-51: 1984: 18,200 t: Northern Fleet: 667BDRM: Tula: K-114: 1987: 18,200 t: Northern Fleet: 667BDRM: ... Hull number Name Laid down Launched Estimated Commission Fleet Note Project 21180M: Svyatogor: 1 September 2023 Northern Fleet Diesel icebreaker Project 23130:
Answer 1 of 5: Hello We are looking to book the overnight train from SPB to Moscow. We will be arriving on the fast train from Helsinki and will spend 2-3 nights here. I'm looking at tickets on rzd.ru and it appears that there are a few trains. As we...
Thistle, 1970s Thistle Sailboat w. Trailer Hull number 3406. Two full sets of North Sails Two spinnakers Lots of extra parts Cover Trailer has full-sized wheels for smooth rolling. Needs nothing to go sailing tomorrow. Details on the Thistle: LOA 17' 0" Beam 6' 0" Draft up/dn 6"/4'6" SA (main and jib) 191 sq. ft. SA (spin) 220 sq ...
Seller's Description. Thistle Class Sailboat for Sale "LizaBeth" Fiberglass Hull, thistle, stored indoors. Very Nice Trailer and 2 year old 4 stroke 2.5 hp outboard Length Overall 17 Feet Beam 6 feet Mast Height 24' 6" Draft board up 6 Down 4ft Hull number 1504. Boat is in good shape, recently re-done wood, 3 coats of Ceatol with all ...
Ship Name: MOSCOW MAERSK: Ship Subtype: Container Ship: Flag: Danish International Register: IMO No. 9778818: Call Sign: for registered users: MMSI: for registered users